For all the debate going on about Poly vs JC, some ppl are failing to see the core issues. The most glaring one, to me, is the failure of Local Unis to see that the times have changed. They are still adhering to the old system where only a select few (increasing, but still too little) poly grads can enter uni.
WAKE UP!
Some of us chose poly even though we could go JC. We had the vision and the foresight to choose to play to our strengths and we acknowledged that we do better with a poly style of education. Now that our grades are respectable (i would say damn good enough) to get into Uni, we are face the issue of the quota imposed by the local unis.
But i’m not gonna complain and not offer a suggestion. To solve this in the simplest way possible, first, why not just open up more slots? hire more and take in more students. second, set up a panel to evaluate the different schools and it’s courses.
In a nutshell, create a viable system of grading against the diff courses of diff polys. eg: for Mass comm students, the COP would be 3.4 and above, whereas for accountancy, it can be in the region of 3.8 and above. Again, everything should be subjected to how individual courses fare on average.
Of course, my suggestions probably means that the Unis will have a ton of extra workload. But i strongly feel that change is what we need in order to move on. If our education is that valued (and i really feel that in some fields of study, we are the best among the region) then we should open up more places and give everyone, JC or poly, more chances to get a degree.
At the end of the day, our education rocks. But the system stinks.
What do you mean by respectable grades? What is the average grade?
You can’t just hire more and allow more in. You do realise that the subsidised school fees can hardly cover the additional resources required to provide for these additional group of people. Quality would have to suffer.
Let’s assume that it could be done. The job market might not be ready for the increase in university graduates. More graduates would not be able to get a job or the pay for graduates would be pushed down.
Why do you want to get an university degree? If it is for the pay, would you still want a degree if it pays the same as what you can get from a diploma?
It’s all about the social benefits and costs. Diplomas are worth more than the ‘A’ level certificates in the job market. To put it bluntly, to an employer, an ‘A’ level certificate is no different from an ‘O’ level certificate. In that sense, a jc student that fails to enter the university incurs a higher social cost than a poly student. On the other hand, you do not want to miss out on the additional social benefits that a good poly student can bring if he is able to get into the university. The admission policies of the universities are a reflection of the need to balance the social costs and benefits, the matching of the university graduates to the job market, the quality of education, etc. Apparently, the universities do not feel that an equal intake of poly and jc students is of the best benefit considering all factors.
The ‘A’ levels is the standardised entrance exam for the local universities and all students should rightly know that. It is the standard measure where the universities can judge between different students fairly. Poly students are not barred from taking the ‘A’ levels as private candidates. Junior colleges serve as preparatory schools for students that intend to sit for the ‘A’ levels while polytechnics impart skills that are more relevant to the job market. The universities do recognize that there are outstanding poly students and hence allow for these poly students whom have proven themselves to be admitted. The criteria for such students naturally would be high such that it is justifiable that they do not have to pass through the common entrance exam (much like the DSA scheme). Hence, you tend to find such poly students to have GPA of >3.5 which meant that they obtained on average an A grade.
Naturally, many poly students will aspire to be admitted to the university. However as pointed out, this is a conscious choice made by the student and he has to be responsible for the consequences of his actions which include the situation where he wasn’t accepted by the local universities. He could however sit for the ‘A’ levels as a private candidates if he wish to prove his mettle against his jc peers. Likewise, jc students would have to accept the situation where they aren’t accepted by the local universities and are left with a certificate that provides no advantage in employment compared to the ‘O’ level certificate. These are the consequences of the student’s actions.
One may cry that such a system is unfair. However as explained earlier, in the benefit of the society, such a system is likely to stay. It is not to say that the percentage of poly students that are admitted to the universities will not increase, but that the intake would have to tie in with the job market which unfortunately will not change in a night.
If you would consider the case that equal numbers are set aside for poly and jc students, then there would be a greater push for students to try to enter the universities through the poly route due to the safety net provided. As a result, students that would have gone to jc would choose to go to poly instead. Effectively, it becomes more likely that poly students will still find it harder to get into the universities, which is not what they are fighting for.
To put it more bluntly, if the poly students want to compete on a fair ground in university admittance, make the ‘A’ level certificate as valuable as the diploma. But we all know, this is not likely to happen.
Lastly, there has been the argument that more and more good students are choosing poly over jc and that we should not discriminate against these group of students. Despite such arguments, we have not seen these group of students identify themselves and claim that they were not able to enter the universities. It thus serve no purpose to bring out these students for the poly students’ defence.
Hi Uno,
let me first say that i can understand the points that you have made. However…
let me first address the issue about “why do i want to get a degree”. As a poly grad waiting for enlistment and his uni acceptance letter, this is an issue many of us have been thinking about. Personally, it’s defn not about the pay. I’m a firm believer that if one is desperate enough, he/she will succeed in life. (esp in my desired job occupation which is advertising).
so what is the main reason behind getting a degree? Very simple. To open doors. In our society, i’m very sad to say this, but paper qualifications seem to determine employer’s perception of you. I can very safely say that there’s no hard and fast rule that Poly grads are inferior to Uni Grads, or ppl who solely hold an A, O or even an ITE cert. With the exceptions of Doctors (who i firmly believe should have a brains to tackle A lvl bio) anyone who is desperate enough to succeed will defn find a way to do so. I have many examples off hand which i would happy to share.
However! these paper qualifications seem to determine what you can or can’t do. And that’s a gripe that i have. I’m pursuing a degree not for the pay or the prestige. I’m doing so because it simply opens up the door for me to be able to have a shot at “management level”. you see, if you’ve gone through the poly system, you’ll know that yes, we do focus on practical training. but that my friend, is just half of it. We learn the theories and we too need to show that we too can handle theory, in order to get gd grades and eventually have a shot at uni.
Next on your point about getting equal numbers at JC and Poly students entering uni. I refer you to this insightful read on another poly-to-uni grad. http://wp.me/pSn98-36
What she says makes alot of sense. It isnt about Poly vs JC students. When you make it seem like we’re competing against each other, and one has to lose out, then we all get aggressive and try to attack each other. What i’m trying to say is that this shouldn’t be a poly vs JC thing at all. This should be about opening up more spaces (yes i know how hard it can be to recruit more lecturers and profs) and not about us trying to climb over each other in order to reach the top.
at the end of the day, education is sth that we all have a right to. At the degree lvl, yes, it’s all about whether your grades deserve an entry. But, with society increasingly demanding that everyone should at least try to aim for a degree, why don’t we all (JC AND Poly) come tgt to ask for more places?
If more ppl get a degree education, would society benefit in the end? have a think about that.
So at the end of this, the question i’m posing to the system is very simply “Why not?”
IF i’m one of the select few poly students who can make it in into uni, do u think i would want the other half-past-six poly students to make it in too? there aren’t many jobs available and i wouldn’t wanna be fighting with so many people graduating at the same time. theres a reason why law and medicine schools only take the top notch students. the answer lies in ‘quality’. wanna get a degree but cant get into local uni? try SIM.
hi J, are you are so afraid that others will trump you just because they are given the chance to have the same lvl of education as you? To that, i have just one very simple answer to your way of thinking.
The mediocre and good can only survive. But only the great will prosper. No matter what ur qualifications are (from just a PSLE cert to even a PHD) This, my friend, is the rule of the working world.
If you naturally assume that by owning a degree, you will get better jobs, then i’m so sorry to inform you but in the working world, once you get the job, that little cert that you might own will account for nothing.
Employers (at least in the sectors that i guess you would seek for as a degree holder) will look for one thing and one thing only: Capability. You will get a job based on your strengths and not over the fact that your cert might be more valuable than others. Nobody will care about that anymore past the education stages of your life.
Besides, the issue at hand here is about the fact that with degrees becoming increasingly the norm here, we should be opening up more and more slots for EVERYONE. So i’m sorry but you dont provide a strong enough reason to my question of “why not?”
Lastly, i can understand that you would want a cert that is more prestigious than others so that you can prove to future employees that “hey, i’m capable”. But isnt that why they have diff classes of honours students? Think about that.
I hope that you get into first class honours. But in the meantime, why don’t we work tgt to ensure that everyone else can at least attain a general degree?
What you said regarding “Why a degree” are not convincing. If it is not about the pay, and that anyone who are “desperate” enough would be able to succeed, then why do you need a degree or to open doors? Would you do a manager job if managers are only paid 1k just like a normal worker? I am just pointing out that in a way or another, people are looking for power or money which you would probably get as you move up to management roles. Of course, I can’t rule out the possibility that you would answer yes to my earlier question. In fact, what I had hoped for in why do you want a degree had been the desire to acquire knowledge and understand the world. While I acknowledge the practicality of the real world, too much focus had been on the dollar value of the degree.
There’s one point that I agree upon. There’s no hard and fast rule that poly graduates are inferior to university graduates or ‘A’ level students, etc. In fact, its myopic to try to think of individuals as poly students, jc students or university students which surface so very often in the poly vs jc debate. Its not about poly students are more hands on or jc students are more academic. Its about what you as an individual is. If you have the aptitude and attitude, it doesn’t mean that if you go to jc, you won’t be good in practicals. Neither does it mean that if you go to poly, you would be less academic.
That said, I hope you agree with me that the ‘A’ levels is the entrance exam to the local universities. Poly students have the option to take the ‘A’ levels as private candidates. And students should take responsibilities for their decisions. There’s no unfairness in this issue.
Let’s then address your main point. Why not increase the number of intake? Perhaps I had not been clear enough earlier. Its not just the difficulty in attracting good faculties. There are other factors like the adequacy of infrastructure. Let’s just pick out one point to illustrate the problem. As an undergraduate, your studies are highly subsidised. By increasing the number of intakes, your school fees won’t be able to pay for the higher cost incurred with it. The money would have to come from somewhere. You won’t be able to increase the intake indefinitely.
Secondly, as pointed out in my earlier comment, its all about benefiting society as a whole. Producing more graduates than what the market could handle would create social problems. While we are moving towards a more knowledge-intensive economy, this will not happen overnight. The number of graduates will increase and the workforce will gradually become more skilled and thus the intake will also increase accordingly. However, at this moment, to answer your question, if too many people get a degree education, society might not necessarily benefit.
Thus I hope that you understand that while we want a more knowledgeable and skilled workforce, we want to grow it at a comfortable rate. We do not want to compromise the quality of education nor do we want students coming in before they are ready for it. Its better for both the students and the universities and the society.
I would be responding to her blog post, do check it out if you are interested.
Hi Uno,
Now i’m a little confused by your stance and let me use this chance to clarify my take on this.
First off, there’s a whole myriad of advantages to get a Degree. But i guess the POV that we’ll have to address here is from the Poly grad’s. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that Poly students are more equipped than just a normal A lvl cert holder.
However, with degrees becoming increasingly the norm here, there’s a need to open up more slots for the Poly grads as well. Because as my older uncles and aunties are putting it “A Dip just isnt enough to cut it anymore, even more so when u’re aiming to be a managerial position”.
Now, i’m not saying that if u’re a Dip holder you cant get promoted and stuff. But with the degree, poly grads are so much better equipped.
Furthermore, if we open up more slots for poly students (again, NOT at the expense of JC) then who knows? we could work more with each other and in the process, because we each own diff sets of skills, we can integrate everything and have a better uni education.
lastly, If ppl are concerned that “hey, why are they coming in and taking up slots that’s meant for us?” then that’s just a selfish view.
In reality(at least for what i see it), most poly grads want to go to uni to further their special set of skills that they alr are equipped with. At least from a perspective of a Poly grad, none of us actually feel that we’re competing with u. We just want to be able to further our education and be equipped with better skills.
Of course, private and overseas Unis do take us in. But as Singaporeans, i guess the sentiment is that we too want to be able to say “hey, we came from a Singapore Uni”
An issue to think about: JCs tend to prepare students with set of skills that are not necessarily the same as those that Polys aim to equip their students with. While I agree that the cap for number of poly students entering universities is not quite the best system, think about this: JC students are prepared in an environment that gives them the chance to develop their critical thinking, essay writing, research skills. On the other hand, Poly students are equipped with more practical, specific skills to certain fields of work. Poly students are more equipped, and more likely to get a job fresh out of poly, compared to a JC student who just has another A level cert, as do thousands of others in their cohort. Poly students are specialized, a diploma is more valuable than an A level cert. However, what universities do is not to prepare students for jobs. Universities are academic institutions that train their populations to be equipped with excellent academic skills primarily, and practical skills later.
Indeed, there are job-specific degrees like doctors, engineers, lawyers, however, these are long-term degrees where students have to learn about fundamentals to their field, like anatomy or basic physics principles, before understanding the technical requirements. Many poly courses focus on APPLIED knowledge, so students are equipped with the SKILLS necessary to perform specific functions. On the other hand, the average A level cert holder lacks these skills and so is much less valuable than a poly grad as an employee.
Furthermore, all this anger aimed at the system is unnecessary. There are more options, as Uno suggested, poly students have the CHOICE to take the A levels (where I am sure you will find that a JC education would have been useful in the critical thinking and research training, compared to sets of practical knowledge) if you think an A level cert holder has a higher chance of getting into university.
Since it is easier to get into a poly, I understand why the caps are so low for local university admissions. Why don’t you try overseas schools? As a student in any system, you need to be competitive in order to meet the needs of society. With more masses in poly, I can see why less are admitted into universities. It is more competitive so that universities will get the creme-de-la-creme. Universities are not your standard government administrated schools; every university is competing to be a quality school. Raising the number of students would quite inadvertently lower the quality of the university as a whole. To request universities to raise the admissions rate just to appease some disgruntled students is not fair.
I know of many people who have slogged away for an A level cert, but end up going to poly after anyway. An A level cert does not GUARANTEE the chances of getting into a university, at all.
These are just some rudimentary points to a very complicated debate. However, I have to say, Uno is definitely more convincing. Loose debate falters in the face of strong argument.
Hi X, first, i would like to refer you to my reply to Uno.
next, i have some issues with some of your views. First off, you say that “as Uno suggested, poly students have the CHOICE to take the A levels”
are you saying that because we chose to go to poly, we should automatically have a lower chance of getting into uni? i disagree totally.
As what i’ve said to Uno, poly students want to get into uni to further their skills. We dont see it as “fighting” with Jc students.
Next, talking about the fact that increasing the intake will lower the quality of education. I think that it’s a valid point, BUT, there’s actually no proof to show that.
Let me give you a very simple analogy. Let’s just assume that 20 years ago, the Uni intake was at about 2000 students. So going by that logic, the fact that Unis take in, lets say 5 times more?, students now… would you say that the quality of education has dropped?
Nay. What caused the increase in intake, was the fact that society has changed. And that’s what’s been happening.
More and more ppl are better qualified to get into local Unis than in the past. but the system has been changing too slowly to reflect this change.
Unlike what you said, I’m not angry at the system. I just hope to shed some light that this has never, and should never be a Poly vs JC thing.
What we should do is actually to come tgt and say “hey, society is getting smarter now. lets open up more Uni slots”. That way everyone benefits.
note: admittedly, i have to agree that it’s not an easy solution to just say “Oi, open up more slots!” there’re many factors involved including costs, finding suitable lecturers and etc…
but if we dont voice our opinion now, when’s the change gonna come?
I’ll throw a real life example to your poorly constructed analogy. Look at American universities. Why is it that many people choose to go to smaller liberal arts colleges versus large state universities with HUGE student intakes? It is because the quality of education tends to be more valuable in a situation where there is a better, smaller teacher:student ratio. Increasing intake arbitrarily in the short term would certainly solve your frustrations but do little to improve things in the long run. Currently, Singapore’s universities are operating with certain logistical limits, hence the caps on number of students. Professor quality, education quality, student life etc. should not be compromised just to open up more slots. Long-term fixes are best to ensure the sustainability of local universities. Universities have to respond to developments in society, I agree, but at the same time, there are limitations to the extent they are able to. What statistics can you use to show that ‘more and more people are better qualified’ to enter local universities? A Level results are based on a standardized system, GPAs across polytechnics differ across different cohorts and can it really be said that the quality of a polytechnic diploma/grade from one institution is congruent or comparable to that from another? So ‘better qualified’ is not a determinant unless compared relative to the rest. What universities look at is how qualified, valuable students are. If the way admissions offices are judging these criteria are flawed, I cannot comment as I have no evidence. In the end, it is still a competition between peers and their achievement. In terms of statistics…Honestly, with Singapore’s resources, it is unlikely that intakes will change very much. What local universities aim at are high quality graduates, high quality education. That is what makes it so attractive, even to international students. I am sure they won’t want to compromise this aspect of a Singapore education.
In regards to the choice to take the A Levels, I meant that you have the choice to place yourself in the bracket of students that use their A Level certificates as leverage to get into university, to get into that same cap. You have a choice. In making any decision it is imperative you look at the long-term. Eg current trends of getting into university, getting a job with a fresh diploma etc. Choosing a poly diploma over the A Level cert means you should accept any foreseeable difficulties along with the benefits, even in the long term. It is matter of universities having to meet the demands coming from the spread of applicants they have, while maintaining competitive as high quality universities.
I never intended to frame it as a JC vs Poly issue; its just the terms in which this argument has to be framed, since these are the two different groups under consideration.
While it is desirable that changes to the system are made, we have to look at whether local universities have the means to accept higher intakes while maintaining education quality–for their benefit, and that of their students. After all, we don’t want Singapore’s universities to become like some slipshod community college. Even if the system changes, bureaucracy takes time, unfortunately, as I’ve learnt in my own institution; and even if we want change, how realistic is it to demand that from these institutions? An education is one of the most highly prized commodities. Quotas are unfair, but universities can pick students at their own discretion, based on how valuable that person is. It is very, very competitive in Singapore; I understand why you are disgruntled, at the same time consider this: Many JC students are not able to get into local universities and choose the poly route after JC. While I cannot gauge their qualifications, I can say this: The local universities are not capable of meeting the desires of everyone; while it seems unfair, it affects people across the board. Luckily, other options are definitely available–going into certificate programs to boost your diploma, looking at overseas universities etc.
I understand that they are probably a ton of reasons why the limitations are in place and that we can’t realistically change the system so regularly.
I also understand that sacrificing quality for quantity is sth that we defn can’t do.
my main purpose of posting my view and encouraging a debate was so that the ppl who watched the awful RazorTv interview would realise that this isn’t a “Poly vs JC” issue at all.
i hope that thru discussion, we (poly and JC grads) can all come together and hopefully propose changes that benefit everyone.
Instead of laying just the facts and saying “sorry, but since you chose a poly education you have to work within the current limitations”. How about we try to propose realistic changes that actually makes sense?
changes that perhaps the Uni Admissions board wouldnt know otherwise because most (if not all) of them came from the JC to Uni route.
My list of proposed changes will come in my next post. Do comment on it.
Hi,
X pretty much sums up quite some of my views. I shall add on just abit more.
The fact that we can take in more students than last time is not just because students are becoming more qualified (I do not even know if this is true), but possibly due to a myriad of other factors too. And I would think the main reason is that our economy has changed and the reputation of the universities have improved over years. Even if everyone are very smart, highly suitable for university studies, if we are just a fishing village and the universities is just a hut, don’t you think quality will suffer if there are more people getting into the universities?
And yes, I do agree that the university experience would be better if we have the students from a poly background and jc background mixing together, which is why you also have the foreign students (which has created so much unhappiness apparently).
I would like to touch on the point on the choice of ‘A’ levels. You might have misunderstood me. I am not referring to the choice of going to the poly or jc. I am referring to the choice that you can study in a poly and yet take the ‘A’ levels as a private candidate. Doing so will provide a fair way to compare with the rest of the students.
Secondly, we are not arguing whether something should be done or should not be done. It’s not whether poly students should automatically be of a lower priority. Of course, each of us have our our opinions on this. But what we are trying to say over here are not that. What we are trying to point out to you is the mechanics of the system, the reason why poly students are allocated less places. Automatically is a convenient word to use. But things happen for a reason. And another thing we are trying to point out is that with the way things work, if you allow poly students to have equal chances, students would be more likely to choose poly over jc. But due to the increase in poly students, the ‘existing’ poly students will find competition even stiffer. It doesn’t solve the problem.
Hi again.
one pt that i disagree with from ur latest comment is this:
“you can study in a poly and yet take the ‘A’ levels as a private candidate. Doing so will provide a fair way to compare with the rest of the students.”
from what i infer, you’re suggesting that poly grads should have to handle poly education as well as take the ‘A’ lvl exam?
to a poly student, there are other ways to prove that he/she is gd enough to enter uni. Grades coupled with portfolio is a gd example. i guess what im trying to say is that ‘A’ lvls shouldnt be the only thing that decides if u ‘qualify’ for Uni
lastly, from what i can see based on news reports that come out each year, more and more ppl are choosing poly over Jc. one of the reasons (tat apply to this topic) is that ppl are seeing that more and more poly grads can get into Uni. As such, they dont feel pressured to try to tackle a Jc education (which is just 2 years of mugging) in order to get their ultimate aim of a degree.
No matter where we go, competition will be stiff. From your last paragraph, you say ” ‘existing’ poly students will find competition even stiffer. It doesn’t solve the problem.” But when you move on to the working world, competition gets so much stiffer. You are not only competing with Singaporeans. You are competing with other expats who came to SG for work.
What i’m trying to say here (sorry if the above wasnt that articulate, the after-lunch coma is setting in):
If u have the drive and resolve to work hard, you needn’t be so afraid of the competition. (no matter in sch or work)